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Rush Holt's HR 811 Does extra harm than first rate | VCS-252 test Questions and PDF Braindumps

READER comments ON"Rush Holt's HR 811 Does greater hurt than good"(fifty three Responses to date...)

comment #1 [Permalink]... John Dean referred to on 6/10/2007 @ 10:43 pm PT...

Ellen has nailed it.

real ballots vs paper trails - Phony election activists, like these at DU, proceed to con unsuspecting individuals about what a ballot really is. For over 200 years, a ballot has always been anything that a voter marks his/her vote on. They have to not enable these folks to redefine just what a pollis.

DREs cheat - let's call a spade a spade...DREs are an abomination to honest elections, proven with the aid of hacking checks, and lots of reviews of wrong votes recorded. so far as i am involved, anybody who poses as an activist but does not call OUT FOR an immediate BAN ON DREs is a faux activist, with unscrupulous motives for aiding this rattling bill.

remark #2 [Permalink]... Caleb mentioned on 6/10/2007 @ 10:forty nine pm PT...

The Congressional Democrats' terribly disappointing twin disasters to demand a timetable for ending the Iraq warfare and assist significant election reform demonstrate that they are not an outstanding counterforce to the Bush administration. helping a 3rd celebration for Congress isn't the answer to their failures, as it will best make certain the election of greater Republicans. The only method to set up a meaningful opposition to the latest regime is to discover and guide mighty basic challengers in the Democratic celebration. They must guide these challengers against incumbent Congressional Democrats who don't, at a minimum, exhibit aid of here: 1) a fast withdrawal of yank troops from Iraq; and a pair of) legislations guaranteeing fair and clear elections (mainly by using banning DREs). each Congressional Democrat who does not meet these minimum thresholds must be made to take note from the grassroots that their craven habits will cause lack of optional workplace.

remark #three [Permalink]... abacus pointed out on 6/10/2007 @ eleven:fifty eight pm PT...

may a person support me? Ellen says:

"HR 811 places these four Presidential appointees in charge of greater responsibilities than those they've inadequately handled thus far, makes the EAC a everlasting company, and offers it with permanent funding."

by some means I can't locate this in any edition of the invoice I've found.

The EAC is an abomination, in my booklet. however i might want to be capable of factor to a soecific clause


remark #four [Permalink]... Simplify noted on 6/eleven/2007 @ 12:fifty nine am PT...

Thanks for this. I guide your principled stand.

comment #5 [Permalink]... the_zapkitty spoke of on 6/11/2007 @ 1:22 am PT...

... abacus pointed out...

"come what may I can't discover this in any edition of the invoice I've discovered."

while the precise text that boldly cited "EXTENSION OF AUTHORIZATION OF ELECTION assistance commission" in the fashioned edition of H.R. 811 has certainly been dropped within the edition handed out of committee... the committee version as a substitute amends HAVA to fund the EAC in perpetuity with the aid of quietly bypassing the EAC's sunset clause.

for example...

`(4) processes FOR CONDUCTING trying out; charge OF user costs FOR COMPENSATION OF permitted LABORATORIES-

`(A) institution OF ESCROW ACCOUNT- The commission shall establish an escrow account (to be accepted because the `testing Escrow Account') for making payments to approved laboratories for the prices of the trying out performed in connection with the certification, decertification, and recertification of vote casting system hardware and application.

... without doubt here's a permanent arrangement, one in every of many such everlasting prerogatives for the EAC in the committee version, so let's pass to...

(D) AUTHORIZATION OF APPROPRIATIONS- There are authorized to be appropriated to the Election assistance fee such sums as may well be indispensable to perform the commission's obligations under paragraphs (three) and (four) of area 231 of the assist america Vote Act of 2002 (as introduced by means of subparagraph (A)).

and there's even more...

So "Holt II" still funds the EAC and money it in perpetuity and there is a good deal extra funds involved with it now. The committee edition now conveniently dollars the EAC en passant instead of actually overriding the usual sunset clause.

This turned into no longer an accident, by the way, here's the advent of a new and badly designed Federal-stage bureacracy. it be obtrusive in hindsight that this advent of an e-balloting empire changed into part of the fee Holt felt he had to pay to get election reform handed.

And identical to so lots of his Democratic colleagues in Congress he fails to see that agreeing to such a nasty cut price "on their behalf" was no longer his choice to make within the first area.

comment #6 [Permalink]... Dredd talked about on 6/eleven/2007 @ 5:02 am PT...

i am reminded once once again of the blind guys across the elephant. each and every one grasps part of the elephant, kinds a picture in his intellect, then forms an opinion about what the elephant is.

One says "it's a palm tree", one other says "no its a snake", yet an additional types an opinion that "it is a giant fan".

The electronic voting desktop "movement" has shaped opinions concerning the elephant for lots longer than anyone grasping for prominence these daze:

"once they first started this challenge, back within the core seventies, they found there have been lots of these methods that had been liable to fraud and out-and-out error," he observed.

(1988 Activist Ponders EVM history, emphasis delivered). government scientists who appeared at the concern fashioned opinions too:

4.13.1 insufficient Pre-election Testing4.13.2 Failure to put in force an satisfactory Audit Trail4.13.3 Failure to deliver for a Partial guide Recount4.13.4 insufficient Ballots or Ballot-Reader Operation4.13.5 inadequate security and management Control4.13.6 insufficient Contingency Planning4.13.7 inadequate equipment Acceptance tactics

(NIST 1988, emphasis delivered).

When it comes down to it "the stream" is a bunch of blind people grasping at a piece of the elephant and forming their sacred opinion. and that is in reality what matters to them.

it is the elephant within the room.

remark #7 [Permalink]... Dredd spoke of on 6/eleven/2007 @ 5:37 am PT...

The move talks a few coming disaster. It got here 40 years in the past.

reminds me of an editorial I study today:

america is dealing with its worst summer time drought due to the fact the filth Bowl years of the first rate melancholy. Or most likely worse nonetheless.

From the mountains and barren region of the West, now into an eighth consecutive dry year, to the wheat farms of Alabama, the place plants are failing because of rainfall levels 12 inches decrease than general, to the giant soupy expanse of Lake Okeechobee in southern Florida, which has turn into so dry it basically caught fireplace a couple of weeks ago, a continent is crying out for water.

(The unbiased)

climate change ability: whatever your climate is it'll trade.

received water? acquired floods? acquired dust?

here in "barren region land" it has been the wettest spring some old timers can bear in mind. i love it. Makes issues green.

If climate exchange is popular, yours and mine will exchange no matter what it's now. every now and then slowly, on occasion radically.

The digital vote casting laptop stream is greater like a rock in a storm zone. All hell breaks unfastened occasionally however when the air clears the rock is still unchanged.

comment #eight [Permalink]... Phil spoke of on 6/eleven/2007 @ 5:43 am PT...

on the grounds that HR 811 will do greater harm than first rate, or not it's an excellent bet that it will get handed. due to the fact that nothing however turds and burnt ash are left at the back of anything this administration touches. Their senators behave like they are mentally challenged. in all probability they're, when it comes to electronics. most likely this is the total problem here, that they are so clueless they have no idea what they're passing anymore. I quite doubt that at this aspect, I went that route early on when i was giving advantage of the doubt to the SOS's that were permitting digital balloting MAchines, I observed, they had been clueless, mis-suggested, or I say, "CORRUPT." There isn't any different excuse, if they don't take note the crap, kill it.

So what's the count number now of the harm?

Habius Corpus, Genevia conference, 1,2,3,four,5,6,7,8,9,10 or the charter, and now no balloting.

now not to point out the entire crony positions.FCC, FDA, DHS, FBI, CIA, NSA, I guess some defense force crap has long gone bad too.

Am I missing extra? i am fairly sure i'm, however what does it remember? Oh yeah the Judicial. And the corporate media. That relatively a whole lot is all of it ain't it? They don't have the Senate!!! If they did they would have accomplished whatever thing.

You can't get health care, you can not go bankrupt, you cannot ask questions.

What else, The Borders nevertheless ain't comfy, and we're a pissin off a plethora of nations, then add to that this complete govt vigour double something directive(s) that you simply cannot even locate on the search engine in case you type THE exact name IN!! it be like they are expecting some new crap (experience?) to happen in an effort to join the relaxation of the dots, and simply have the United Dictatorship of the world with (worse than) 24/7/365 martial law and everything grinding to a halt.

I've individually had it. I been quiet currently cause i need a destroy from this crap. If they cannot even vote anymore there may be no longer a lot of anything left anymore. No deserve to bother any individual within the government anymore, in all probability, it be time to simply disappear from them. Oh wait, can't do that both, can't even depart the country. I ain't even going to put in writing my Senators anymore. Why should still I trouble with the ache it puts me although, i am unwell of it, or not it's like babysitting a fucking two year old.

If I have been dictator for a day, I swear to god there would be so many executive people in prison that they might need to construct a prison camp. in the event that they might show their innocence --- wonderful, however unless then, their security playing cards are revoked and shredded, keys eliminated, entry denied, vaults locked, and the complete armed forces, could be moving to defend the 360 degree border of the USA, now not this quagmire lost cause in Iraq.

I desire some ballsy frequent would circulate out some "just DO IT." playing cards, the place you take it upon yourself to just clean up this corruption.

I had it. but then i am not a dictator. i am only one of the legendary little people.

A nothing, no person.

Sorry, I sound so depressed.

comment #9 [Permalink]... Dredd observed on 6/eleven/2007 @ 5:fifty nine am PT...

Rock on.

One thing Bev Harris discovered when she entered her striking digital balloting computer adventure changed into "shock and awe".

She turned into stunned to locate that there turned into just one tester of digital balloting machines for 300 million or so individuals.

but more than that, she found that there became no check for protection. It turned into exactly the same within the year 2525 1988:

Would this sort of test discover, as an instance, a "time bomb" set to delivery transferring a certain percentage of votes from one candidate to an extra at a undeniable time, or another programmers' tricks?

"Of route now not," Naegele referred to. "or not it's no longer a check of the system. it be not security!"

(Ye Olde Timer's e book To The EVM Universe).

comment #10 [Permalink]... Phil spoke of on 6/eleven/2007 @ 6:14 am PT...

Dude, I imply Dredd, (i hope i can call ya dude, possibly one day we'll have just a few beers....)

2525 heh heh heh, I pray no longer.

however severely, I been asserting, what about at the DOPING stage?

Who's to say some rf packet burst can not completely alternate the logic?

Who's to claim what the part number on a chip is in reality what's inner the chip?

Who's to do the harmful reverse engineering on every single half inner every field and network from point a to point b?

Who's to say the chip even is working? half's burn out on their own without a help at all.

it be the electronics dull (And no Dredd is not dull.) The electronics make utility seem like a piker.

actually the truth is it be more than that. or not it's racism, it's disenfranchisement, or not it's caging, it be simply simple fscked up...every manner you study it, the more you appear the extra you discover, the extra you discover the more pissed you get the greater pissed you get the extra your body suffers from stress.

And as a distinct side word, the low frequency humming at my domestic has truly been bad the last few days. A +20db can not even sleep at nighttime. i do know the power (whatever thing the specifics are) is aimed at my condominium, since the moment I walk through the threshold of a door, or a window the sound almost fully goes away.

Some people call this the TAOS HUM, I name it intellectual torture. or not it's fucking bullshit. it's not an astral hum either, that don't trojan horse me, it really is high frequency.

The torture noise, is low frequency, like a Diesel Engine Idling just a few blocks away, but there is no TRUCK, and or not it's handiest INDOORS, if you exit, previous the edge of the window, or the door, the db level dies.

this is fucking precise. or not it's now not some physical ear difficulty.

comment #eleven [Permalink]... veritas pointed out on 6/eleven/2007 @ 6:forty two am PT...

As i have been asserting..... they can nevertheless be the use of DRE's which might be simply hacked and paper trails which suggest completely NOTHING!

Any clever american need to asked themselves at this factor: "WHY VOTE"???????

WHY VOTE??? it is time to tell their candidates that they plan to vote for no one unless/until their corrupt gadget is cleaned up to the delight of the individuals!

A boycott of the subsequent election is THE most effective alternative that allows you to GET THEIR attention, individuals.

remark #12 [Permalink]... veritas stated on 6/eleven/2007 @ 6:50 am PT...

anyway, other than the amoral, illegal Iraq battle which is tanking this country, no candidate is talking concerning the massive "elephant within the room" which is their disgusting health care gadget.

we have forty five Million americans with none type of health care, which would not include these elders on Medicare, so what does that depart in terms of people who can "have enough money" to have fitness care??

If they weren't spending hundreds of thousands of greenbacks (before breakfast) day to day in Iraq, simply think about how comfortably they may supply free fitness care to all residents???

this is a variety of genocide - the sad fact that so many of their citizens ought to choose from a roof over their head or drugs and fitness care - or meals on their table and their medications/health care. What are they doing?? We're taking their eye off the ball....we're no longer tending to their personal backyard....we're spending billions of bucks on demise and destruction as a substitute of taking that money and doing anything humaitarian - throwing good cash, as they say, after "unhealthy"....very bad!

If a candidate arrives on the horizon who speaks about "health look after all" and this doesn't suggest some cockamamie challenge like Edwards or Hillary's "reasonably priced health care" proposals, then they'll win this election palms DOWN.

Free fitness care for ALL is the identify of the video game and the certain "win" in 08! to this point, the subsequent President has now not even come to the stage, as far as many individuals are concerned.....WHO WILL it be??

bound - they should be concerned concerning the genocide in Darfur....but what about the genocide in their own nation occurring appropriate under their noses? isn't the undeniable fact that so many americans can't find the money for the health care they deserve to sustain existence a type of genocide?

I certainly consider so!

comment #13 [Permalink]... veritas referred to on 6/11/2007 @ 6:fifty four am PT...

After memorizing the posts right here nowadays and stacking up the bloodless, complicated statistics, again, I ought to make the inquiry: Why vote?

comment #14 [Permalink]... Dredd talked about on 6/11/2007 @ 6:56 am PT...

Phil #10

cherish to do some suds with you someday bro. i admire mythical little americans ale or lager. :)

i was thinking about Ellen's argument #1 (below HR 811, some “ballots” don’t should ever count) and i discover it trying for completeness, or relevance. Is it ale or lager? ;)

within the historical days right here they extolled the virtues of exit polls as a result of:

Exit polling is a well-developed science, suggested through half a century of journey and invariably improving methodology.

(Steven F. Freeman, Ph.D., et. alia). One vital point about the neatly-developed exit polling science is that they by no means count the entire votes. They don't count number any votes as a be counted of reality.

however they get it correct.

So Ellen's argument is half-baked until and until she explains why the indisputable fact that some paper ballots are usually not counted is dispositive of the situation.

The science is all about appropriate sampling.

the chances in HR 811 and S. 559 (some discretion as to percent is left to the states) enable for as a lot sampling as is carried out for exit polling. the key then is scientific sampling.

enough of the canards ... dude, I need to go have a beer with Phil.

remark #15 [Permalink]... Dredd said on 6/11/2007 @ 7:00 am PT...

Veritas is a daring blogger ... ninety nine help, turn off the lights :)

comment #sixteen [Permalink]... veritas observed on 6/eleven/2007 @ 7:05 am PT...

hi Dredd!

i might accept as true with you that exit polling has all the time been a reasonably accurate benchmark; although, it be now been proven that while americans slept believing that they'd have a Democratic President within the White house, the "gremlins" had been going to town to deprave the exit polls to be sure their synchronicity with the consequences. So where does that leave exit polling now?

remark #17 [Permalink]... veritas referred to on 6/eleven/2007 @ 7:08 am PT...

i think that this dialogue/argument might be nevertheless occurring when election '08 rolls around in an effort to chalk a further "stolen election" as much as their stats. perhaps it's superior to keep one's head in the sand and consider the brainwashed mantra about how sincere and brilliant they are??

comment #18 [Permalink]... veritas pointed out on 6/11/2007 @ 7:10 am PT...

sorry about the "bold", Dredd but for some purpose my posts are coming out in that font once I've grew to become it off....??? in all probability now it is going to change...

remark #19 [Permalink]... Dredd stated on 6/eleven/2007 @ 7:18 am PT...

Veritas #16

Steve F. Freeman posted here some days ago. The science of exit polling is doing rather well.

it is how issues are used or no longer used that concerns.

be aware that Stalin used a hundred% paper ballots and nevertheless all the time won.

He gave away the key when he revealed that "It isn't who votes [or how I could add] that counts, however who counts the votes."

The blind guys deserve to draw close the total elephant:

"It takes a decent village to lift a decent electronic balloting computing device equipment." -Dredd 2525

Oh ... yeah Phil ... when my girl gets pissed off at me she brings home a bottle of smug Bastard Ale for me to peruse.

In case any person was questioning why i am such an boastful bastard from time to time. it is first rate stuff (the ale).

remark #20 [Permalink]... John Gideon mentioned on 6/eleven/2007 @ 7:38 am PT...

The "bold" is out of right here.

comment #21 [Permalink]... GWN pointed out on 6/eleven/2007 @ 9:forty one am PT...

Dredd I even have certainly not concept of you as boastful and in line with the advert for conceited Bastard Ale you have to be subtle. :-)

Phil # eight You say; "If I have been dictator for a day, I swear to god there could be so many executive individuals in penal complex that they might should construct a jail camp."i might do the equal so might be what you need is "somebody" to come back and make a regime trade. As your neighbour I feel the frustration so can only think about how it ought to be for you guys. Sorry all they will do is probably ship in more Canadian Geese.

remark #22 [Permalink]... MarkH referred to on 6/11/2007 @ 10:23 am PT...

... veritas said on 6/11/2007 @ 6:54 am PT..."After analyzing the posts right here these days and stacking up the cold, difficult records, once again, I have to make the inquiry: Why vote?"

since it's their civic duty as an issue with that?

remark #23 [Permalink]... MarkH mentioned on 6/eleven/2007 @ 10:30 am PT...

considering the fact that the identify of Holt's invoice and it's sections says one element and the text says some thing else it jogs my memory of the "Clear Skies" environmental legislation Bush handed. it be furry law.

Who got to Holt? became he blackmailed or purchased off?Enquiring minds need to know.

comment #24 [Permalink]... veritas noted on 6/eleven/2007 @ 10:31 am PT...

Mark: I certainly do if the probability exists that the elections of 2000 and 2004 have been hacked. Why would you be an idiot to face on line and be made an additional idiot of?? Are you that undeserving?

comment #25 [Permalink]... veritas talked about on 6/eleven/2007 @ 10:33 am PT...

MarkH: Is it their "civic responsibility" then to be made a fool of and disenfranchised? I believe not. As they are saying: once a idiot, at all times a idiot. I bet that I have greater self-appreciate than that.

comment #26 [Permalink]... Dredd spoke of on 6/11/2007 @ eleven:forty am PT...

Thanks John #20 and GWN #21 ... sure send geese!

it's respectable that they explore the professionals and cons of HR 811 and S. 559.

I favored the long-established HR 811 earlier than it got here out of committee stronger than that which got here out of committee, and that i like what S. 559 provides ... I call it the outlaw Ken Blackwell clause.

although lest any individual misunderstand, the criticism Ellen and others express is smartly acquired with the aid of me and i would not are seeking to intimidate criticism.

despite the fact I do caution us that they have to hang collectively so that they don't grasp for my part.

Zap_kitty and i bandered it backward and forward basically ad nauseum a while back, so i'm not going to go into greater aspect lest I bore (blahg, blahg, blahg) my fellow bloggers.

remark #27 [Permalink]... veritas noted on 6/eleven/2007 @ 2:15 pm PT...

Re: The outlaw Ken Blackwell Clause - the place is he in the complicit mess which took place in Ohio? after all, he became Co-Chair of Bush/Cheney 04 while protecting the conflict of interest of also being State Elections Committee Head. where's the goods on Blackwell and his Diebold connection??

remark #28 [Permalink]... Brad Friedman observed on 6/eleven/2007 @ three:37 pm PT...

To reply Dredd's question:

One crucial element concerning the well-developed exit polling science is that they by no means count number all of the votes. They don't count any votes as a count of reality.

however they get it appropriate.

So Ellen's argument is half-baked until and until she explains why the fact that some paper ballots usually are not counted is dispositive of the situation.

The science is all about correct sampling.

The smart assessment is a little apples and oranges as I see it.

For one, as you smartly know, Exit Polls (no matter if right or wrong) have no legally binding repute, whereas "ballots" do.

furthermore, if you are auditing paper trails from a DRE election, there is exactly NO way to grasp even if or no longer ANY of paper trails used for the audit (basically, a spot-examine) have ever been been Checked as correct by using the voter.

so that you've got a deceptive influence given to voters that their "paper trails" will in fact be used to derive the consequences of the election (none of them will be counted via anyone or any factor on election nighttime, and most effective three to 10% of them at some aspect down the highway) and when/if any of these trails, which they name "ballots" are truly counted, there isn't any way to understand that a single path being counted truly represents the intent of the voter.

actual paper-based mostly pollsystems together with hand-marked paper ballots are, by definition, a favourite reflection of the voter intent. There isn't any option to have any skills of the precise voter's intent when "auditing" "paper path" elections.

Hope to put up an article quickly on how one can fairly conveniently steal a complete country wide election by way of a DRE with "paper trail" system, by which the paper trails match the gamed machines effects completely.

A Holt audit of such paper trails would prove that DREs are "correct" as soon as and for all, however that both the machines, and the "voter-confirmed paper audit trails" (VVPAT) have each been gamed. right below the nostril of vigilant voters.

comment #29 [Permalink]... Ellen Theisen noted on 6/eleven/2007 @ 3:37 pm PT...

Abacus requested the place within the invoice it extends the EAC indefinitely. besides the sections The_Zapkitty pointed to, there's one that is very particular, although now not explicit. at the end of area 326 - payments to states for audits.

`(e) Authorization of Appropriations- There are approved to be appropriated to the fee for fiscal 12 months 2008 and every succeeding fiscal 12 months $a hundred,000,000 for payments under this section.

remark #30 [Permalink]... Ellen Theisen talked about on 6/eleven/2007 @ 3:50 pm PT...

Brad pointed out:

there is not any means to grasp that a single path being counted actually represents the intent of the voter.

so as to add to this, there's a new doctoral dissertation --- in line with research as antagonistic to the speculation that so an awful lot is in accordance with nowadays --- that tells us 60% of the voters in the examine did not word improper tips on the overview screen of the DRE. If it really is the case just imagine what number of would notice mistakes on the paper printout. In her dissertation, Sarah P. Everett of Rice university says:

These reviews also go past usability comparisons and test no matter if voters notice if their ultimate ballots on the DRE replicate choices aside from what the voters chosen. outcomes point out that over 60% of voters don't word if their votes as shown on the review screen are different than how they had been selected. whole races can also be brought or faraway from ballots and voter’s candidate choices can be flipped and the vast majority of users do not be aware.

remark #31 [Permalink]... veritas noted on 6/11/2007 @ four:17 pm PT...

Thanks Brad & Ellen for enlightening us and that i appreciate the factual tips you provided;although, it's removed from assuaging my fears that my vote will count number! As for me, I've already made up my mind and until/except I see that there is a major attempt made to thwart the hijacking of yet another election (I firmly trust that George Bush changed into the "president who never was"), I think i could forego the hassle of even making an attempt to vote. As of this moment, that situation certainly doesn't exist anywhere during this country. we've undergone extra to be sure the validity and honesty of Iraq's election (albeit below armed take care of and curfew!) and nonetheless allow this chicanery to exist in ours - amazingly disgusting! So for now i'll need to pass on balloting each time quickly and easily say: No thanks!

remark #32 [Permalink]... Ellen Theisen pointed out on 6/11/2007 @ four:37 pm PT...


yes, we're in a multitude. but I believe there are two fundamental applications for voting:

1) to opt for the candidates2) to vote for democracy.

when I see 30% voter turnout, it makes me very unhappy that 70% of the people appeared to have voted towards democracy. If purpose #1 is in question, you could nonetheless fulfill goal #1 via voting. And who knows, your vote may simply in fact count. Of course, if you do not vote, then you can make certain it may not.

comment #33 [Permalink]... Ellen Theisen mentioned on 6/eleven/2007 @ 4:39 pm PT...

oops, make that:

If aim #1 is in question, that you can nonetheless fulfill aim #2 by using voting.

remark #34 [Permalink]... Dolphyn spoke of on 6/eleven/2007 @ 4:fifty six pm PT...

information flash: Dennis Kucinich has withdrawn his support for the Holt invoice, and he plans to reintroduce HR 1600 which might require paper ballots for Presidential elections starting 2008. thanks, Dennis!

Sources:OpEdNewsBev Harris

remark #35 [Permalink]... Brad Friedman observed on 6/11/2007 @ 5:10 pm PT...

Veritas -

Um, where do you are living? Given your comments, i am starting to consider you can be up to much less respectable than you in the beginning looked right here. anywhere it's, i'm guessing for you to vote by a paper ballot, even though it's by way of absentee. so as to suggest the remedy for their electoral woes is to no longer vote --- an apprehension recommended time and once more through the DNC and friends, despite any evidence to again up such a terror --- makes me fairly suspicious of the genuine intent of your explanations in unexpectedly posting all of those feedback these days at BRAD blog.

comment #36 [Permalink]... Dave Berman referred to on 6/11/2007 @ 6:56 pm PT...

superb article, Ellen, thanks in your analysis and sober assessments.

regarding the elephant within the room, hmmm, is it election integrity or fitness care or impeachment or ...

There is not any approach to totally resolve any of those issues to the exclusion of the others, and sure no longer at all until they appreciate that peaceable Revolution Is The Elephant in the Room. (old hyperlink, i've been announcing this a very long time...)

comment #37 [Permalink]... Agent ninety nine mentioned on 6/eleven/2007 @ 8:31 pm PT...


vote casting is the least you could do. They need so a good deal greater, but if you cannot even do that, what the hell appropriate do you must gripe about anything?

comment #38 [Permalink]... John Russell mentioned on 6/eleven/2007 @ 8:54 pm PT...

I motivate individuals to overview The Election Reform document on my site. . The Holt bill, too susceptible in the preliminary phase, has been modified into a complete POC. In Florida we've endured the entire hints and needless to say the crooks are always two steps/iterations of their plans to steal the subsequent election... ahead of us. dwell vigilant. study what is non-negotiable pertaining to election reform... stick to it and retain ramming it down the throat of all these legislators which are stalling on behalf of retaining control... for the "business enterprise" John Russell, Contestant,CD 5 Fla. 2006

comment #39 [Permalink]... abacus pointed out on 6/eleven/2007 @ 10:45 pm PT...

the zapkitty - #5

Tnx very tons


comment #forty [Permalink]... abacus stated on 6/11/2007 @ 11:02 pm PT...

Ellen #29

Tnx - additionally tnx for exquisite summing up

Veritas - agree with additionally...a vote on local concerns can make a difference...our last election for governor right here in Washington ended with 369 vote margin...

comment #forty one [Permalink]... Dredd said on 6/12/2007 @ 6:13 am PT...

Brad, you spoke of:

For one, as you smartly be aware of, Exit Polls (no matter if correct or wrong) have no legally binding popularity, whereas "ballots" do.

That does not address what Ellen's argument nor what my counter argument offered. You injected a straw man.

Neither Ellen nor I dispute the existence of criminal ballots nor the legality of exit polls.

She argued at her element #1 that "some “ballots” don’t need to ever depend". and he or she concluded this is ipso facto bad.

I countered that it is not ipso facto unhealthy as a result of adequate could be counted to peer if there's a discrepancy, the use of scientific sampling, as exit polling does.

And exit polls can exhibit defects even where even zero votes are counted by hand. that is because they have got developed a science, not basically opinion, and they have it mastered.

I didn't even say exit polling would be used, I stated like exit polling.

My focal point turned into that suitable sampling negates the need to count a large number of ballots. Scientific sampling.

Your argument offered to me is some thing utterly distinctive from my aspect, and does not address my challenge to Ellen's assumption.

comment #42 [Permalink]... Dredd noted on 6/12/2007 @ 6:16 am PT...

Brad #28

You additionally stated:

furthermore, when you are auditing paper trails from a DRE election, there is exactly NO approach to understand no matter if or no longer ANY of paper trails used for the audit (truly, a spot-verify) have ever been been demonstrated as accurate by way of the voter.

yes, and in case you aren't auditing paper trails you don't seem to be. So what? I did not address that subject in any respect. Neither did Ellen in her factor #1.

The query "are they paper ballots or are they paper trails" is considered one of most suitable reality. Neither aspect of a debate can command the reply. either side are confined to offering argument. simplest the judges can decide in case you win or unfastened your argument.

Making a conclusion of best fact in an argument won't work before a tribunal the place these concerns will definitely emerge as some day.

Then and there the arguments could be required to consult with the statutory textual content, offer interpretation, then persuade the judges with legitimate argument that the interpretation superior is really, and legislations, appropriate.

And the best arguments in order to work there are applicable ones primarily based upon the legislations of statutory interpretation. it is, after all, the legislation that criminal interpretative techniques be used to interpret any congressional statute. and those legal guidelines of interpretation are well settled.

Assuming with the aid of concluding on an foremost truth is a type of arrogance in the eyes of tribunals that ought to agree with each side of an argument.

An angle of "i'm correct so you judges can inform my opponent to close up with the intention to all go home now" might not get very far.

it's suitable decorum to respect the different side's arguments and features by addressing such arguments without delay and accurately. I have viewed dire outcome come across litigants who misrepresent the argument of an opposing litigant before a tribunal.

i love to think about myself before a tribunal once I debate, so i could become greater exercised in suitable debate.

remark #43 [Permalink]... Dredd pointed out on 6/12/2007 @ 6:26 am PT...


Your aspect #2 ("Secret vote-counting is counseled") is half-baked.

It doesn't well known that probably the most two HR 811 bills continues to be around and might be the one that prevails. one in all them nonetheless mandates open source code.

Neither does your argument renowned that S. 559 mandates open source code.

i hope you are conscious that congress is bicameral and each the Senate and house models should be fused or morphed into one invoice finally.

So, because it now stands, two of the three latest versions mandate open source code, and only one doesn't.

it really is a two to 1 argument in opposition t your statement. i hope you don't think that places your argument within the majority!

remark #44 [Permalink]... Ellen Theisen stated on 6/12/2007 @ 7:02 am PT...

Dredd, you pointed out:

She argued at her aspect #1 that "some “ballots” don’t must ever rely". and he or she concluded that is ipso facto bad.

I countered that it is not ipso facto unhealthy as a result of satisfactory could be counted to look if there's a discrepancy, using scientific sampling, as exit polling does.

The element i used to be trying to make is that pieces of paper defined as "ballots" don't need to ever rely. I agree with that is ipso facto bad. if they are not going to ALL count, then they should be referred to as "printouts" or "reviews," but now not "ballots."

You also said:

Your aspect #2 ("Secret vote-counting is recommended") is half-baked.

It does not well known that probably the most two HR 811 bills remains round and may be the one that prevails. one of them nevertheless mandates open source code.

I wasn't speaking of alternative expenses, most effective HR 811. however, it's elaborate to consider that the software business led with the aid of Microsoft may swoop into a residence committee and reverse the disclosed software requirement with the premiere of ease, however could be unable to do the identical in the Senate.

comment #45 [Permalink]... BOB younger stated on 6/12/2007 @ 9:06 am PT...


“(Steven F. Freeman, Ph.D., et. alia). One crucial point in regards to the neatly-developed exit polling science is that they under no circumstances count number all the votes. They do not count any votes as a count number of truth.but they get it appropriate.So Ellen's argument is half-baked unless and until she explains why the fact that some paper ballots will not be counted is dispositive of the subject.The science is all about appropriate sampling.”If the sampling is done appropriately they do have a high chance of getting it right. That chance may no longer be as excessive as the probability that GWB became by no means elected president of america by the vote of the americans but it is still very excessive.

however as you pointed out “The science is all about proper sampling.” the place proper is via far essentially the most essential consideration. if you happen to do every little thing to your vigor to see that as many as viable of the votes on the way to not seemingly be on your candidate are not counted, as Karl Rove has been schooled to do and certainly is doing very very very well, then correct sampling is obviously now not even near being within the photo. to ignore all provisional ballots as a result of Karl Rove and his cohorts in crime felt these individuals would now not vote neoCon will never ever ever ever result in proper sampling. So when you evaluate the science of exit polling to the NeoCon addiction of selectively counting often possible favorable votes you've got ventured neatly past the difficulty of comparing apples to oranges. you are comparing nonsense to logic. They by no means ever ever ever may be a suit!

whereas the chance of and exit ballot being correct if carried out safely will also be very high it isn't an exact science. it really is why anybody who truly helps democracy will insist that every and every vote count as solid. the rest less is a sham.

HR 811 is one other probability for congress to fake to be aiding democracy while no longer getting us any nearer to being a democracy than they are now and that very naturally isn't even shut.

even if the paper trails should be referred to as ballots is a worthless side challenge. if they don’t make their paper trails out of soft squeezable tissue they are absolutely nugatory no rely what you all ultimately conform to label them.

So alas Ellens declare that "Rush Holt's HR 811 Does extra hurt than good" certain seems like a extremely huge understatement to me! Karl Rove should love the new version of HAVA the passing of HR 811 will create for him! :(

comment #forty six [Permalink]... Dredd mentioned on 6/12/2007 @ 9:44 am PT...

Ellen #44

You mentioned:

The factor i was attempting to make is that pieces of paper described as "ballots" don't need to ever count.

(emphasis mine). always it's an admission that you didn't make the factor you have been making an attempt to make. Which is a concession.

altering an argument ex submit facto renders the condition into whatever thing equivalent to the wind blowing and altering the barren region sands right into a always unstable scenario.

And on blogs it becomes blahg, blahg, blahg, and unluckily no person gets anywhere actual.

remark #47 [Permalink]... Dredd noted on 6/12/2007 @ 10:11 am PT...

Ellen #44 you referred to "I wasn't speaking of alternative expenses, simplest HR 811."

adequate, but there are two condo 811 Holt bills, and there is also one more within the Senate (S. 559). they are all nevertheless vital to the discussion.

As you comprehend the congress is bi-cameral and all three types will must be hammered or morphed into one remaining edition that each the condo and the Senate need to pass.

If that last version fails in both the apartment or in the Senate it fails length and is not sent to the president to develop into legislation or be vetoed.

comment #forty eight [Permalink]... Dredd observed on 6/12/2007 @ eleven:08 am PT...

Bob young #forty five

You said:

whether the paper trails should be called ballots is a worthless aspect problem.

handiest when you are on the nugatory aspect of the argument. :)

agree with that american legislation requires that all parts of congressional statutes be given full meaning and that no half is rendered superfluous or meaningless.

the day past the Federal court docket of Appeals for the 4th Circuit chided the united states attorney for making your argument:

To study the statute because the executive proposes would eliminate the 2d step and render the statutory language ... superfluous --- some thing courts are detest to do. See, e.g.,Mackey v. Lanier collection agency & Serv., Inc., 486 U.S. 825, 837 (1988) (“[W]e are hesitant to adopt an interpretation of a congressional enactment which renders superfluous an extra component of that identical legislation.”).

(Al-Marri v Wright, No. 06-7427, 4th Circuit, June 11, 2007, at pages 17-18 of the pdf).

it's in the end important even if the term "paper ballot", which looks some forty nine times in the common textual content, capability what it says and says what it ability. Or no matter if it potential "paper trail" even tho the time period "paper trail" looks zero instances within the textual content.

You need to get previous a number of boundaries which are well established in the legislation of statutory interpretation.

and i am definite you may not get via those limitations along with your argument.

comment #forty nine [Permalink]... Helen Rainier pointed out on 6/12/2007 @ eleven:39 am PT...

Who, exactly, did the "mark-up" on this invoice? It bears no resemblance to what turned into at the beginning proposed.

Has Holt repudiated it in its revised edition?

remark #50 [Permalink]... Dredd spoke of on 6/13/2007 @ 1:fifty seven am PT...

Helen #49

The mark-up appears to me to were directed by way of the electronic balloting computing device trade, such as Diebold.

It eliminated or watered down the customary requirement that the source code be made obtainable to a citizen when the citizen requested a glance at it.

Ellen thinks Microsoft changed into accountable, besides the fact that children, they signify just one operating equipment (home windows).

The congress cannot choose one working equipment over a further devoid of justification, so for example, Linux and Unix should still also be candidates for the operating equipment of electronic vote casting machines.

So i am nonetheless of the opinion that the Diebolds of the area had more to do with it than Microsoft did.

Brad made some comments on one more thread a number of days ago that offers me cause to consider his method to criticising the bills is extra cost-efficient a criticism of the expenses.

He takes what I call an "operational method" and argues that operationally (how the invoice really works no depend what it says) is to increase the vote guidance on a laptop over paper ballots. And as a result, he argues, the "paper ballot" lingo is sort of a human appendix and pretty much useless.

it really is a higher logical strategy than one of the most different arguments IMO. youngsters, as I defined to him on those different threads, when one is arguing before the reputable judicial tribunals that goes to be a tough argument to succeed on.

those courts are strongly in prefer of the "undeniable textual content rule" which ability they consider congress potential what it says when the text is apparent, and that they implement the commonplace which means of normal phrases in such expenses.

I feel they would say that "paper ballot" in the context of the bills ability precisely that and nothing else.

remark #fifty one [Permalink]... Dredd pointed out on 6/13/2007 @ 5:07 am PT...

I went returned over HR 811 as offered in Feburary, 2007, before the amendment to it came out of committee.

one of the most brought up functions within the text of HR 811 is:

"to require a voter-validated permanent paper ballot"

it truly is 4 things:

1) voter-verified2) permanent3) paper4) ballot.

The definitions, within the textual content of the bill, of those four issues are:

1) voter-tested = "made obtainable for inspection and verification via the voter earlier than the voter's vote is solid and counted"

2) everlasting = "the total length of the retention and protection period known as for with the aid of title III of the Civil Rights Act of 1960 (forty two united statesC. 1974 et seq.) or under applicable State law, whichever is longer"

3) paper = "long lasting paper of archival fine capable of withstanding numerous counts and recounts without compromising the basic integrity of the ballots, and capable of maintaining the suggestions marked, printed, or recorded on them"

4) ballot = "examples of ... a pollinclude": (a) "a paper pollmarked by way of the voter for the goal of being counted by hand or examine via an optical scanner or other identical device"; (b) "a paper ballot prepared with the aid of the voter to be mailed to an election respectable (whether from a home or foreign places location)"; (c) "a paper pollcreated through the use of a pollmarking equipment or gadget"; and (d) "a paper pollproduced with the aid of a splash monitor or other digital vote casting computer, as long as in every case the voter is authorized to assess the pollin a paper kind"

I suppose it can also be fairly pointed out that, within the clear absence of the term "paper trail" anywhere within the textual content of the invoice, this bill is supposed to focus on paper ballots to a major diploma.

comment #fifty two [Permalink]... Dredd stated on 6/13/2007 @ 6:forty seven am PT...

those 4 things mentioned in publish #51 are given pre-eminence within the case of "any recount or audit". to date so good, however what triggers a recount or an audit?

This does:

within the event of any inconsistencies or irregularities between any electronic vote tallies and the vote tallies decided with the aid of counting by means of hand the individual permanent paper ballots produced pursuant to subparagraph (A), and field to subparagraph (D), the individual permanent paper ballots will likely be the real and proper record of the votes forged and will likely be used as the respectable ballots for applications of any recount or audit conducted with appreciate to any election for Federal office wherein the vote casting equipment is used.

this is where the rub involves some of the detractors of the bill. The phrase "digital vote tallies" is scary since the invoice doesn't trigger audits or recounts until the election is very close.

Very close is a really small one or two % change between first vicinity and 2nd location. as a result, the entire first rate things are usually not invoked except the election is essentially too close to call.

there's one portion of the textual content that may well be read to require a random, unannounced audit of each election to be decided by the Election Audit Board, created through the new bill:

... an Election Audit Board to manage, without Strengthen be aware to the precincts selected, random hand counts of the voter-established paper ballots required to be produced and preserved pursuant to part 301(a)(2) for each such election held within the State (and, at the option of the State or jurisdiction concerned, of elections for State and native workplace held similtaneously such election).

(Sec. 321(a), emphasis brought). that could truly be a good component. but it might also now not be the case.

Brad has argued that here is not operative and the real operative mechanism is simply these circumstances the place the vote is terribly, very close.

for this reason, all that hackers or fraudsters would ought to do is hack the vote or design the code with an eye fixed towards making sure the election's unofficial count is outside the small percent required to invoke the audit mechanism.

and that's a sound criticism because the textual content is ambiguous ample that a tribunal would so dangle IMO.

The bill may be quite simply fastened to evidently state that the Election Audit Board have to do a random audit of a correct variety of precincts scientifically chosen (as within the case of exit polls) no rely how far apart first and 2nd place changed into in the digital vote tallies.

comment #fifty three [Permalink]... big dan talked about on 6/14/2007 @ eleven:49 am PT...

You must vote...MAKE them steal the election! if you don't VOTE, they don't even have to STEAL THE ELECTION! it truly is why you have to vote anyway! The optimal they desire, is for you now not to even VOTE!

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